Thursday, 24 December 2015

Re: [firebird-support] Re: UPDATE to same record causing heavy disk I/O

 

On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Dmitry Yemanov dimitr@users.sourceforge.net [firebird-support] <firebird-support@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
24.12.2015 05:31, 'Leyne, Sean' wrote:
>
> With today's unlimited availability of disk space and silly-low cost per GB for storage, would an argument to dispense with the delta and simply store a full copy of the record (not including BLOB) be worthy of discussion?

It's not about storage cost, but about IOPS. Bigger record = more I/O
for the same data = slower performance. Situation is better for SSDs,
but "silly-low cost" does not really apply there.

Right.  The logic was never about saving space on disk, except to the extent that it reduces the amount of I/O necessary to complete a query. 

> I know that Jim has mentioned that in his later db engine he has adopted a reverse approach which has the latest version stored in full and for transactions required back versions responsible processing the deltas.  In this way, the latest version of the row are always complete so that the back versions can be dropped very efficiently.

Isn't it exactly how Firebird works?

Yes it is.  The primary record version - the most recently created one - is always complete. The earlier record versions may be whole or deltas.   

Jim did handle back versions differently in Netfrastructure and slightly differently again in NuoDB.  InterBase was designed for systems where having a whole megbyte of memory, so stuff had to go to disk as quickly as possible.  When designing for more generous memory systems, he chose to keep only the most current committed record on disk. That version, and important back versions, and the newest uncommited version were all maintained in memory.  If the system went down, any old transactions that needed old versions went down with it.

NuoDB did approximately the same thing, except that it was distributed, so old versions had to be maintained a bit more carefully so losing one node would never lose all old versions.

His latest database, AmorphousDB handles versioning at the attribute level rather than the record level, but follows the model that only the most recently committed version of an attribute is worth the cost of a disk write.

Cheers,

Ann

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[firebird-support] Re: UPDATE to same record causing heavy disk I/O

 

24.12.2015 05:31, 'Leyne, Sean' wrote:
>
> With today's unlimited availability of disk space and silly-low cost per GB for storage, would an argument to dispense with the delta and simply store a full copy of the record (not including BLOB) be worthy of discussion?

It's not about storage cost, but about IOPS. Bigger record = more I/O
for the same data = slower performance. Situation is better for SSDs,
but "silly-low cost" does not really apply there.

> I know that Jim has mentioned that in his later db engine he has adopted a reverse approach which has the latest version stored in full and for transactions required back versions responsible processing the deltas. In this way, the latest version of the row are always complete so that the back versions can be dropped very efficiently.

Isn't it exactly how Firebird works?

Dmitry

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Posted by: Dmitry Yemanov <dimitr@users.sourceforge.net>
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Also search the knowledgebases at http://www.ibphoenix.com/resources/documents/

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Re: [firebird-support] Bad performance of Firebird in Windows Server 2012

 

One cache problem is the one mentioned in the article, fixed in 2.1.5, etc.

The other is the fact that PDC machine will always have write cache disabled.

Carlos
www.firebirdnews.org - www.FireBase.com.br





Carlos:

Thank you for your answer.

I suggested to not configure the server as a domain controller but the person who decide this didn´t want!

I already read the article you mention and there is where I found that apparently upgrading to 2.1.5 will solve the problem but I was not sure. So if I upgrade, the performance would be similar as if disk cache was enabled?

I don´t understand what do you mean saying "The cache problem you are referring to is another thing". Are there TWO cache problems? Which is THE OTHER? Please, can you explain me?

Regards

Eduardo

-------- Mensaje original --------
Asunto: Re: [firebird-support] Bad performance of Firebird in Windows Server 2012
De: 'Carlos H. Cantu'
listas@warmboot.com.br [firebird-support] <firebird-support@yahoogroups.com>
Para: Eduardo gusedum@gmail.com [firebird-support] <firebird-support@yahoogroups.com>
Fecha: 24/12/2015 12:47
 
Never use Firebird (or any RDBMS) in a PDC machine! Windows will always disable write disk cache in PDC, and it will be very bad for any write sensitive application, like databases (not only Firebird).

The cache problem you are referring to is another thing, and to solve this one, you need to upgrade to 2.1.5 (at last):
http://dyemanov.blogspot.com.br/2012/03/firebird-vs-windows-file-system-caching.html

Carlos
www.firebirdnews.org - www.FireBase.com.br






Hi guys:

I have an application developped in Delphi that uses Firebird Superserver 2.1.4.18393.

It is installed in a Windows network. During many years, the server had Windows Server 2003 and everything worked fine. Some time ago they changed it temporarily to another PC with Windows 8.1. Everything worked fine.

A few days ago they installed a new server with Windows Server 2012. My application is working, but it works very slow. It has a log file and I verified that the bad performance occurs in every data base access, when it opens a database, when it executes any SQL, etc.

I did a little research and found that, apparently, the problem is related with the disk cache. In the old servers, disk cache was enabled but in the new one with Windows Server 2012 it is disabled and, as the server is configured as a domain controller, as far as I know, it can´t be enabled.

I read some articles about problems similar to this one and apparently this is a problem related with Firebird. In some articles they said that since version 2.1.5 this is solved. ¿Is this true?

¿Updating to 2.1.5 will solve the problem?

¿Is there something I can do to solve this without updating?

Any suggestions will be welcome!

Regards

Eduardo

Este correo electrónico se ha enviado desde un equipo libre de virus y protegido por Avast.
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Posted by: "Carlos H. Cantu" <listas@warmboot.com.br>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (4)
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Visit http://www.firebirdsql.org and click the Documentation item
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Also search the knowledgebases at http://www.ibphoenix.com/resources/documents/

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Re: [firebird-support] Bad performance of Firebird in Windows Server 2012

 

Carlos:

Thank you for your answer.

I suggested to not configure the server as a domain controller but the person who decide this didn´t want!

I already read the article you mention and there is where I found that apparently upgrading to 2.1.5 will solve the problem but I was not sure. So if I upgrade, the performance would be similar as if disk cache was enabled?

I don´t understand what do you mean saying "The cache problem you are referring to is another thing". Are there TWO cache problems? Which is THE OTHER? Please, can you explain me?

Regards

Eduardo

-------- Mensaje original --------
Asunto: Re: [firebird-support] Bad performance of Firebird in Windows Server 2012
De: 'Carlos H. Cantu' listas@warmboot.com.br [firebird-support] <firebird-support@yahoogroups.com>
Para: Eduardo gusedum@gmail.com [firebird-support] <firebird-support@yahoogroups.com>
Fecha: 24/12/2015 12:47
 

Never use Firebird (or any RDBMS) in a PDC machine! Windows will always disable write disk cache in PDC, and it will be very bad for any write sensitive application, like databases (not only Firebird).

The cache problem you are referring to is another thing, and to solve this one, you need to upgrade to 2.1.5 (at last):
http://dyemanov.blogspot.com.br/2012/03/firebird-vs-windows-file-system-caching.html

Carlos
www.firebirdnews.org - www.FireBase.com.br





Hi guys:

I have an application developped in Delphi that uses Firebird Superserver 2.1.4.18393.

It is installed in a Windows network. During many years, the server had Windows Server 2003 and everything worked fine. Some time ago they changed it temporarily to another PC with Windows 8.1. Everything worked fine.

A few days ago they installed a new server with Windows Server 2012. My application is working, but it works very slow. It has a log file and I verified that the bad performance occurs in every data base access, when it opens a database, when it executes any SQL, etc.

I did a little research and found that, apparently, the problem is related with the disk cache. In the old servers, disk cache was enabled but in the new one with Windows Server 2012 it is disabled and, as the server is configured as a domain controller, as far as I know, it can´t be enabled.

I read some articles about problems similar to this one and apparently this is a problem related with Firebird. In some articles they said that since version 2.1.5 this is solved. ¿Is this true?

¿Updating to 2.1.5 will solve the problem?

¿Is there something I can do to solve this without updating?

Any suggestions will be welcome!

Regards

Eduardo

Este correo electrónico se ha enviado desde un equipo libre de virus y protegido por Avast.
www.avast.com




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Posted by: Eduardo <gusedum@gmail.com>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (3)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Visit http://www.firebirdsql.org and click the Documentation item
on the main (top) menu.  Try FAQ and other links from the left-side menu there.

Also search the knowledgebases at http://www.ibphoenix.com/resources/documents/

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

.

__,_._,___

Re: [firebird-support] Bad performance of Firebird in Windows Server 2012

 

Never use Firebird (or any RDBMS) in a PDC machine! Windows will always disable write disk cache in PDC, and it will be very bad for any write sensitive application, like databases (not only Firebird).

The cache problem you are referring to is another thing, and to solve this one, you need to upgrade to 2.1.5 (at last):
http://dyemanov.blogspot.com.br/2012/03/firebird-vs-windows-file-system-caching.html

Carlos
www.firebirdnews.org - www.FireBase.com.br





Hi guys:

I have an application developped in Delphi that uses Firebird Superserver 2.1.4.18393.

It is installed in a Windows network. During many years, the server had Windows Server 2003 and everything worked fine. Some time ago they changed it temporarily to another PC with Windows 8.1. Everything worked fine.

A few days ago they installed a new server with Windows Server 2012. My application is working, but it works very slow. It has a log file and I verified that the bad performance occurs in every data base access, when it opens a database, when it executes any SQL, etc.

I did a little research and found that, apparently, the problem is related with the disk cache. In the old servers, disk cache was enabled but in the new one with Windows Server 2012 it is disabled and, as the server is configured as a domain controller, as far as I know, it can´t be enabled.

I read some articles about problems similar to this one and apparently this is a problem related with Firebird. In some articles they said that since version 2.1.5 this is solved. ¿Is this true?

¿Updating to 2.1.5 will solve the problem?

¿Is there something I can do to solve this without updating?

Any suggestions will be welcome!

Regards

Eduardo

Este correo electrónico se ha enviado desde un equipo libre de virus y protegido por Avast.
www.avast.com



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Posted by: "Carlos H. Cantu" <listas@warmboot.com.br>
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Visit http://www.firebirdsql.org and click the Documentation item
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Also search the knowledgebases at http://www.ibphoenix.com/resources/documents/

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Re: shopping keywords + dest.urls

Hi!

FinalUrls are empty in the PRODUCT_PARTITION_REPORT. Also CRITERIA_PERFORMANCE_REPORT has no Final URLs for shopping campaigns. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

  1. Can you get FinalUrls in any of the reports for shopping?
  2. Is there any way to get landing pages which were clicked in shopping campagins? Even without the keywords?
  3. Is Google working on getting FinalUrls in SEARCH_QUERY_PERFORMANCE_REPORT reports (for shopping)?


Regards,

Dennis



On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 3:15:07 PM UTC+1, Anthony Madrigal wrote:
Hi Dennis,

Unfortunately, there is no way for you to get the search terms as far as I know. However, you can use the Product Partition Report to get final Urls since the destination Urls are deprecated. You can use this report if your interest is in a product partition (criterion level), not a product level (OfferId).

Regards,
Anthony
AdWords API Team

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[firebird-support] Bad performance of Firebird in Windows Server 2012

 

Hi guys:

I have an application developped in Delphi that uses Firebird Superserver 2.1.4.18393.

It is installed in a Windows network. During many years, the server had Windows Server 2003 and everything worked fine. Some time ago they changed it temporarily to another PC with Windows 8.1. Everything worked fine.

A few days ago they installed a new server with Windows Server 2012. My application is working, but it works very slow. It has a log file and I verified that the bad performance occurs in every data base access, when it opens a database, when it executes any SQL, etc.

I did a little research and found that, apparently, the problem is related with the disk cache. In the old servers, disk cache was enabled but in the new one with Windows Server 2012 it is disabled and, as the server is configured as a domain controller, as far as I know, it can´t be enabled.

I read some articles about problems similar to this one and apparently this is a problem related with Firebird. In some articles they said that since version 2.1.5 this is solved. ¿Is this true?

¿Updating to 2.1.5 will solve the problem?

¿Is there something I can do to solve this without updating?

Any suggestions will be welcome!

Regards

Eduardo

Este correo electrónico se ha enviado desde un equipo libre de virus y protegido por Avast.
www.avast.com

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Posted by: Eduardo <gusedum@gmail.com>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1)
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Visit http://www.firebirdsql.org and click the Documentation item
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Also search the knowledgebases at http://www.ibphoenix.com/resources/documents/

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Re: [firebird-support] Numeration without hole, Is right Before Insert Trigger?

 

Also, take a look at this ancient document that used to be the standard answer to people asking the same question as yours: http://ibobjects.com/docs/ti_AuditableSeries.ZIP

HTH,
Set

2015-12-22 20:26 GMT+01:00 Ann Harrison aharrison@ibphoenix.com [firebird-support] <firebird-support@yahoogroups.com>:


On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 9:40 AM, Luigi Siciliano luigisic@tiscalinet.it [firebird-support] <firebird-support@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

   I must assign a serial number, without hole, in a column of a fiscal
document.  I must assign the number only when I know if the document is complete
and I think the right moment is on a Before Insert Trigger for the table.

Yes that's a good place, but you've got to be very careful.  Generators/Sequences won't
work because they're deliberately non-transactional.  Once you take one its gone and if
your operation fails, you'll have a hole. 

Is right or the insertion can fail? If not right, when I must assign the
number to be sure of not have a hole in numeration?

One way to get numbers without holes is to create a table with one field that contains 
the seed for  your numbers.  In your before insert trigger update that field adding one to it, 
then read to get the new value.  Unfortunately, if someone else has inserted a record
concurrently, your transaction will wait then get an error and you'll need to re-run the
whole thing. 

 Check the FAQ's at FirebirdSQL.org for other ways of handling this problem.


Good luck,

Ann






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Wednesday, 23 December 2015

Re: Keywords Performance Report - First Position CPC addition request

Hi Will,

Sorry that my reply wasn't clear to you.

Regarding your question,
So going back to my original question "Is this something that will be added at some point, or is there a reason for it being excluded?"
It may be added at some point in the future but we can't guarantee the timeline at this moment.

Cheers,
Thanet, AdWords API Team

On Wednesday, December 23, 2015 at 6:39:51 PM UTC+9, Will Atkins wrote:
Thanks Thanet,

So going back to my original question "Is this something that will be added at some point, or is there a reason for it being excluded?"

Can I take from their response that it may be added at some point in the future (I appreciate they probably can't say how soon)?  

I mean I'm assuming there isn't a reason it wasn't added that would mean it would never be added?

Just after some more information.

Cheers,
Will

On Wednesday, 23 December 2015 04:53:53 UTC, Thanet Knack Praneenararat (AdWords API Team) wrote:
Hello Will,

Sorry for keeping you waiting.
I've got confirmation that the attribute you asked is not available at this moment.

Please refer to the AdWords API blog and release notes for any updates or announcements in the future.

Cheers,
Thanet, AdWords API Team

On Wednesday, December 16, 2015 at 9:43:19 PM UTC+9, Thanet Knack Praneenararat (AdWords API Team) wrote:
Hi Will,

I've chased the relevant team recently but not got reply back.
I apologize that at this moment I can't comment on this issue.
However, please rest assured that your request has been passed to the related team already.

Sorry for this inconvenience.

Best,
Thanet, AdWords API Team

On Wednesday, December 16, 2015 at 7:28:39 PM UTC+9, Will Atkins wrote:
Hey Thanet,

Sorry to chase again, but it's been over a month now, just wondering when I can expect to get some help with this one?

Thanks,
Will

On Monday, 30 November 2015 16:06:46 UTC, Thanet Knack Praneenararat (AdWords API Team) wrote:
Hi Will,

Unfortunately, I haven't got updates yet.
I'll update this thread once I get more information.

Best,
Thanet, AdWords API Team

On Monday, November 30, 2015 at 11:41:36 PM UTC+9, Will Atkins wrote:
Hi Thanet,

Just checking in to see if there are any updates on this one?

Thanks,
Will

On Friday, 13 November 2015 07:28:44 UTC, Thanet Knack Praneenararat (AdWords API Team) wrote:
Hi Will,

Let me check with the reporting team first.
I will let you know once I get information.

Cheers,
Thanet, AdWords API Team

On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 9:16:42 PM UTC+9, Will Atkins wrote:
Hi there,

In the Keywords Performance Report (accessed via the api - https://developers.google.com/adwords/api/docs/appendix/reports/keywords-performance-report) there are currently attributes for First page CPC and Top of page CPC, but there is not one for First position CPC (Which is visible in the Web UI for Adwords in the Keywords report "Est. first position bid").

Is this something that will be added at some point, or is there a reason for it being excluded?

Thanks,
Will

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RE: [firebird-support] Re: UPDATE to same record causing heavy disk I/O

 



> Right. When we were working on InterBase 1.1 (I think) a friend of Jim's
> suggested using deltas for back versions to save space.  He's still a friend, but
> that feature was a real trial to implement and debug, partly because we ran
> out of bits in the record header.

With today's unlimited availability of disk space and silly-low cost per GB for storage, would an argument to dispense with the delta and simply store a full copy of the record (not including BLOB) be worthy of discussion?

I wonder if the economics which required the creation of delta's has been overtaken and the cost of merging deltas is no longer worth it.

I know that Jim has mentioned that in his later db engine he has adopted a reverse approach which has the latest version stored in full and for transactions required back versions responsible processing the deltas. In this way, the latest version of the row are always complete so that the back versions can be dropped very efficiently.


Sean

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Posted by: "Leyne, Sean" <Sean@broadviewsoftware.com>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (9)
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Re: [firebird-support] Re: UPDATE to same record causing heavy disk I/O

 

On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Dmitry Yemanov dimitr@users.sourceforge.net [firebird-support] <firebird-support@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
23.12.2015 01:36, Ann Harrison wrote:

>
> ...Your first update will create a back
> version that's just the difference between the old record state and the
> new state.  The second (or maybe third) will create a back version
> that's the whole record (IIRC) - much larger and possibly off page.

Correct, but from another side third, fourth, etc updates will not
create any new versions. May be worth checking whether a "heavy" second
update could be better than creating a long version chain.

Right. When we were working on InterBase 1.1 (I think) a friend of Jim's suggested using deltas for back versions to save space.  He's still a friend, but that feature was a real trial to implement and debug, partly because we ran out of bits in the record header.  There's one that says "the version behind me is a delta", but not one that says "I am a delta."  The first one is essential because it means that you've got to set up a copy of the record on which to apply deltas.  The second would have been very nice for detecting bugs that lead to having the first bit set when it shouldn't be or not set when it should.  

Once the deltas were working reasonably well, we discovered that some users were updating a single record dozens of times in a transaction.  Not a use case we'd considered.  I don't remember whether we decided to create a complete back version after two or three updates in one transaction, though I vaguely remember arguing that like Martinis, one or two was pretty reasonable, but after three things are likely to go off in an unexpected direction.  With small records, a complete back version saves space compared with three deltas.  With big records and small changes... not so much.

Cheers,

Ann


Dmitry




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Posted by: Ann Harrison <aharrison@ibphoenix.com>
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